Tisha b'Av Atid

Is 9 Av commemorating a one-time occurence? A general mood? Global events?

How does it respond to the world around it?

Are we sad and therefore we do 9 Av and other mourning rituals? Or do we do them in order to be sad?

Is there any value in being miserable on purpose?

Joy and Sorrow

״שִׂמְחוּ אֶת יְרוּשָׁלִַים וְגִילוּ בָהּ כׇּל אֹהֲבֶיהָ שִׂישׂוּ אִתָּהּ מָשׂוֹשׂ כׇּל הַמִּתְאַבְּלִים עָלֶיהָ״, מִכָּאן אָמְרוּ: כׇּל הַמִּתְאַבֵּל עַל יְרוּשָׁלַיִם — זוֹכֶה וְרוֹאֶה בְּשִׂמְחָתָהּ, וְשֶׁאֵינוֹ מִתְאַבֵּל עַל יְרוּשָׁלַיִם — אֵינוֹ רוֹאֶה בְּשִׂמְחָתָהּ.

“Rejoice with Jerusalem and be glad with her, all who love her; rejoice for joy with her, all who mourn for her” (Isaiah 66:10). From here it is stated: Whoever mourns for Jerusalem will merit and see her future joy, and whoever does not mourn for Jerusalem will not see her future joy.

- What is the connection between joy and mourning? Why do you think the Talmud says they are each dependent on the other?

- When have you been sad about camp and what has made you happy? Do you think the ups and downs are related?

שוב פעם אחת היו עולין לירושלים כיון שהגיעו להר הצופים קרעו בגדיהם כיון שהגיעו להר הבית ראו שועל שיצא מבית קדשי הקדשים התחילו הן בוכין ור"ע מצחק אמרו לו מפני מה אתה מצחק אמר להם מפני מה אתם בוכים אמרו לו מקום שכתוב בו (במדבר א, נא) והזר הקרב יומת ועכשיו שועלים הלכו בו ולא נבכה אמר להן לכך אני מצחק [...] תלה הכתוב נבואתו של זכריה בנבואתו של אוריה באוריה כתיב (מיכה ג, יב) לכן בגללכם ציון שדה תחרש [וגו'] בזכריה כתיב (זכריה ח, ד) עוד ישבו זקנים וזקנות ברחובות ירושלם עד שלא נתקיימה נבואתו של אוריה הייתי מתיירא שלא תתקיים נבואתו של זכריה עכשיו שנתקיימה נבואתו של אוריה בידוע שנבואתו של זכריה מתקיימת בלשון הזה אמרו לו עקיבא ניחמתנו עקיבא ניחמתנו:

The Gemara relates another incident involving those Sages. On another occasion they were ascending to Jerusalem after the destruction of the Temple. When they arrived at Mount Scopus and saw the site of the Temple, they rent their garments in mourning, in keeping with halakhic practice. When they arrived at the Temple Mount, they saw a fox that emerged from the site of the Holy of Holies. They began weeping, and Rabbi Akiva was laughing. They said to him: For what reason are you laughing? Rabbi Akiva said to them: For what reason are you weeping? They said to him: This is the place concerning which it is written: “And the non-priest who approaches shall die” (Numbers 1:51), and now foxes walk in it; and shall we not weep? Rabbi Akiva said to them: That is why I am laughing: [...] the prophecy of Zechariah is dependent on fulfillment of the prophecy of Uriah. In the prophecy of Uriah it is written: “Therefore, for your sake Zion shall be plowed as a field, and Jerusalem shall become rubble, and the Temple Mount as the high places of a forest” (Micah 3:12), where foxes are found. There is a rabbinic tradition that this was prophesied by Uriah. In the prophecy of Zechariah it is written: “There shall yet be elderly men and elderly women sitting in the streets of Jerusalem” (Zechariah 8:4). Until the prophecy of Uriah with regard to the destruction of the city was fulfilled I was afraid that the prophecy of Zechariah would not be fulfilled, as the two prophecies are linked. Now that the prophecy of Uriah was fulfilled, it is evident that the prophecy of Zechariah remains valid. The Gemara adds: The Sages said to him, employing this formulation: Akiva, you have comforted us; Akiva, you have comforted us.

What do you think the Sages felt throughout this story?

Is it always helpful to meet pain with joy?

Will this last forever?

דְּאָמַר רַב חָנָא בַּר בִּיזְנָא אָמַר רַבִּי שִׁמְעוֹן חֲסִידָא, מַאי דִּכְתִיב: ״כֹּה אָמַר ה׳ צְבָאוֹת צוֹם הָרְבִיעִי וְצוֹם הַחֲמִישִׁי וְצוֹם הַשְּׁבִיעִי וְצוֹם הָעֲשִׂירִי יִהְיֶה לְבֵית יְהוּדָה לְשָׂשׂוֹן וּלְשִׂמְחָה״. קָרֵי לְהוּ ״צוֹם״, וְקָרֵי לְהוּ ״שָׂשׂוֹן וְשִׂמְחָה״! בִּזְמַן שֶׁיֵּשׁ שָׁלוֹם — יִהְיוּ לְשָׂשׂוֹן וּלְשִׂמְחָה, אֵין שָׁלוֹם — צוֹם.
As Rav Ḥana bar Bizna said that Rabbi Shimon Ḥasida said: What is the meaning of that which is written: “Thus said the Lord of hosts: The fast of the fourth month, and the fast of the fifth, and fast of the seventh, and the fast of the tenth, shall become times of joy and gladness, and cheerful seasons, to the house of Judah” (Zechariah 8:19). It calls them days of “fast” and it calls them “times of joy and gladness.” How so? When there is peace in the world, they will be times of joy and gladness, on which eulogies and fasting are forbidden; but when there is no peace, they are days of fasting. In a time when there is no peace, why are messengers not sent out also for the fourth and tenth months, so that people can know when to observe the fasts?

The Talmud says that all our sad days will become happy in the future.

וְתַנְיָא: אִי אֶפְשָׁר לוֹמַר בְּשִׁבְעָה, שֶׁהֲרֵי כְּבָר נֶאֱמַר ״בֶּעָשׂוֹר״. וְאִי אֶפְשָׁר לוֹמַר בֶּעָשׂוֹר, שֶׁהֲרֵי כְּבָר נֶאֱמַר ״בְּשִׁבְעָה״, הָא כֵּיצַד? בְּשִׁבְעָה נִכְנְסוּ נׇכְרִים לַהֵיכָל, וְאָכְלוּ וְקִלְקְלוּ בּוֹ שְׁבִיעִי שְׁמִינִי. וּתְשִׁיעִי סָמוּךְ לַחֲשֵׁיכָה הֵצִיתוּ בּוֹ אֶת הָאוּר, וְהָיָה דּוֹלֵק וְהוֹלֵךְ כׇּל הַיּוֹם כּוּלּוֹ, שֶׁנֶּאֱמַר: ״אוֹי לָנוּ כִּי פָנָה הַיּוֹם כִּי יִנָּטוּ צִלְלֵי עָרֶב״. וְהַיְינוּ דְּאָמַר רַבִּי יוֹחָנָן: אִלְמָלֵי הָיִיתִי בְּאוֹתוֹ הַדּוֹר לֹא קְבַעְתִּיו אֶלָּא בָּעֲשִׂירִי, מִפְּנֵי שֶׁרוּבּוֹ שֶׁל הֵיכָל בּוֹ נִשְׂרַף. וְרַבָּנַן — אַתְחַלְתָּא דְפוּרְעֲנוּתָא עֲדִיפָא. וּבַשְּׁנִיָּה מְנָלַן, דְּתַנְיָא: מְגַלְגְּלִין זְכוּת לְיוֹם זַכַּאי, וְחוֹבָה לְיוֹם חַיָּיב.
And it is taught in a baraita: It is impossible to say that the Temple was burned on the seventh of Av, as it has already been stated, in Jeremiah, that it was destroyed on the tenth. And it is also impossible to say that the Temple was burned on the tenth of Av, as it has already been stated that it was destroyed on the seventh, in II Kings 25:8–9. How so; what actually occurred? On the seventh of Av, gentiles entered the Sanctuary, and on the seventh and the eighth they ate there and desecrated it, by engaging in acts of fornication. And on the ninth, adjacent to nightfall, they set fire to it, and it continuously burned the entire day, as it is stated: “Woe unto us, for the day has declined, for the shadows of the evening are stretched out” (Jeremiah 4:6). This verse is interpreted as a prophecy about the evening when the Temple was burned. And this is what Rabbi Yoḥanan meant when he said: Had I been alive in that generation, I would have established the fast only on the tenth of Av because most of the Sanctuary was burned on that day. And the Sages, who established the fast on the ninth, how do they respond to that comment? They maintain that it is preferable to mark the beginning of the tragedy. And the mishna further taught that the Temple was destroyed for the second time also on the Ninth of Av. The Gemara asks: From where do we derive that the Second Temple was destroyed on this date? It is taught in a baraita: A meritorious matter is brought about on an auspicious day, and a deleterious matter on an inauspicious day, e.g., the Ninth of Av, on which several tragedies had already occurred.

- Why might we want to concentrate all our tragedies onto one day?

- The Talmud here takes one point of disaster, the destruction of the Temple, and stretches it out onto four parts. Why do you think that might be?

Levels of Mourning - Extremism? Moderation?

תָּנוּ רַבָּנַן כְּשֶׁחָרַב הַבַּיִת בַּשְּׁנִיָּה רַבּוּ פְּרוּשִׁין בְּיִשְׂרָאֵל שֶׁלֹּא לֶאֱכוֹל בָּשָׂר וְשֶׁלֹּא לִשְׁתּוֹת יַיִן נִטְפַּל לָהֶן רַבִּי יְהוֹשֻׁעַ אָמַר לָהֶן בָּנַי מִפְּנֵי מָה אִי אַתֶּם אוֹכְלִין בָּשָׂר וְאֵין אַתֶּם שׁוֹתִין יַיִן אָמְרוּ לוֹ נֹאכַל בָּשָׂר שֶׁמִּמֶּנּוּ מַקְרִיבִין עַל גַּבֵּי מִזְבֵּחַ וְעַכְשָׁיו בָּטֵל נִשְׁתֶּה יַיִן שֶׁמְּנַסְּכִין עַל גַּבֵּי הַמִּזְבֵּחַ וְעַכְשָׁיו בָּטֵל אָמַר לָהֶם אִם כֵּן לֶחֶם לֹא נֹאכַל שֶׁכְּבָר בָּטְלוּ מְנָחוֹת אֶפְשָׁר בְּפֵירוֹת פֵּירוֹת לֹא נֹאכַל שֶׁכְּבָר בָּטְלוּ בִּכּוּרִים אֶפְשָׁר בְּפֵירוֹת אֲחֵרִים מַיִם לֹא נִשְׁתֶּה שֶׁכְּבָר בָּטֵל נִיסּוּךְ הַמַּיִם שָׁתְקוּ אָמַר לָהֶן בָּנַי בּוֹאוּ וְאוֹמַר לָכֶם שֶׁלֹּא לְהִתְאַבֵּל כׇּל עִיקָּר אִי אֶפְשָׁר שֶׁכְּבָר נִגְזְרָה גְּזֵרָה וּלְהִתְאַבֵּל יוֹתֵר מִדַּאי אִי אֶפְשָׁר שֶׁאֵין גּוֹזְרִין גְּזֵירָה עַל הַצִּבּוּר אֶלָּא אִם כֵּן רוֹב צִבּוּר יְכוֹלִין לַעֲמוֹד בָּהּ דִּכְתִיב בַּמְּאֵרָה אַתֶּם נֵאָרִים וְאֹתִי אַתֶּם קֹבְעִים הַגּוֹי כֻּלּוֹ

אֶלָּא כָּךְ אָמְרוּ חֲכָמִים סָד אָדָם אֶת בֵּיתוֹ בְּסִיד וּמְשַׁיֵּיר בּוֹ דָּבָר מוּעָט וְכַמָּה אָמַר רַב יוֹסֵף אַמָּה עַל אַמָּה אָמַר רַב חִסְדָּא כְּנֶגֶד הַפֶּתַח עוֹשֶׂה אָדָם כׇּל צׇרְכֵי סְעוּדָה וּמְשַׁיֵּיר דָּבָר מוּעָט מַאי הִיא אָמַר רַב פָּפָּא כָּסָא דְהַרְסָנָא עוֹשָׂה אִשָּׁה כׇּל תַּכְשִׁיטֶיהָ וּמְשַׁיֶּירֶת דָּבָר מוּעָט מַאי הִיא אָמַר רַב בַּת צִדְעָא שֶׁנֶּאֱמַר אִם אֶשְׁכָּחֵךְ יְרוּשָׁלִָם תִּשְׁכַּח יְמִינִי תִּדְבַּק לְשׁוֹנִי לְחִכִּי וְגוֹ׳ מַאי עַל רֹאשׁ שִׂמְחָתִי אָמַר רַב יִצְחָק זֶה אֵפֶר מִקְלֶה שֶׁבְּרֹאשׁ חֲתָנִים אֲמַר לֵיהּ רַב פָּפָּא לְאַבָּיֵי הֵיכָא מַנַּח לֵהּ בִּמְקוֹם תְּפִילִּין שֶׁנֶּאֱמַר לָשׂוּם לַאֲבֵלֵי צִיּוֹן לָתֵת לָהֶם פְּאֵר תַּחַת אֵפֶר וְכׇל הַמִּתְאַבֵּל עַל יְרוּשָׁלַיִם זוֹכֶה וְרוֹאֶה בְּשִׂמְחָתָהּ שֶׁנֶּאֱמַר שִׂמְחוּ אֶת יְרוּשָׁלַםִ וְגוֹ׳ תַּנְיָא אָמַר רַבִּי יִשְׁמָעֵאל בֶּן אֱלִישָׁע מִיּוֹם שֶׁחָרַב בֵּית הַמִּקְדָּשׁ דִּין הוּא שֶׁנִּגְזוֹר עַל עַצְמֵנוּ שֶׁלֹּא לֶאֱכוֹל בָּשָׂר וְלֹא לִשְׁתּוֹת יַיִן אֶלָּא אֵין גּוֹזְרִין גְּזֵרָה עַל הַצִּבּוּר אֶלָּא אִם כֵּן רוֹב צִבּוּר יְכוֹלִין לַעֲמוֹד בָּהּ

The Sages taught in a baraita (Tosefta, Sota 15:11): When the Temple was destroyed a second time, there was an increase in the number of ascetics among the Jews, whose practice was to not eat meat and to not drink wine. Rabbi Yehoshua joined them to discuss their practice. He said to them: My children, for what reason do you not eat meat and do you not drink wine? They said to him: Shall we eat meat, from which offerings are sacrificed upon the altar, and now the altar has ceased to exist? Shall we drink wine, which is poured as a libation upon the altar, and now the altar has ceased to exist? Rabbi Yehoshua said to them: If so, we will not eat bread either, since the meal-offerings that were offered upon the altar have ceased. They replied: You are correct. It is possible to subsist with produce. He said to them: We will not eat produce either, since the bringing of the first fruits have ceased. They replied: You are correct. We will no longer eat the produce of the seven species from which the first fruits were brought, as it is possible to subsist with other produce. He said to them: If so, we will not drink water, since the water libation has ceased. They were silent, as they realized that they could not survive without water. Rabbi Yehoshua said to them: My children, come, and I will tell you how we should act. To not mourn at all is impossible, as the decree was already issued and the Temple has been destroyed. But to mourn excessively as you are doing is also impossible, as the Sages do not issue a decree upon the public unless a majority of the public is able to abide by it, as it is written: “You are cursed with the curse, yet you rob Me, even this whole nation” (Malachi 3:9), indicating that the prophet rebukes the people for neglecting observances only if they were accepted by the whole nation. Rabbi Yehoshua continues:

Rather, this is what the Sages said: A person may plaster his house with plaster, but he must leave over a small amount in it without plaster to remember the destruction of the Temple. The Gemara interjects: And how much is a small amount? Rav Yosef said: One cubit by one cubit. Rav Ḥisda said: This should be opposite the entrance, so that it is visible to all. Rabbi Yehoshua continues: The Sages said that a person may prepare all that he needs for a meal, but he must leave out a small item to remember the destruction of the Temple. The Gemara interjects: What is this small item? Rav Pappa said: Something akin to small, fried fish. Rabbi Yehoshua continues: The Sages said that a woman may engage in all of her cosmetic treatments, but she must leave out a small matter to remember the destruction of the Temple. The Gemara interjects: What is this small matter? Rav said: She does not remove hair from the place on the temple from which women would remove hair. The source for these practices is a verse, as it is stated: “If I forget you, Jerusalem, let my right hand forget its cunning. Let my tongue cleave to the roof of my mouth, if I remember you not; if I set not Jerusalem above my highest joy” (Psalms 137:5–6). The Gemara asks: What is the meaning of: Above my highest [rosh] joy? Rav Yitzḥak says: This is referring to the burnt ashes that are customarily placed on the head [rosh] of bridegrooms at the time of their wedding celebrations, to remember the destruction of the Temple. Rav Pappa said to Abaye: Where are they placed? Abaye replied: On the place where phylacteries are placed, as it is stated: “To appoint to them that mourn in Zion, to give to them a garland in place of ashes” (Isaiah 61:3). Since phylacteries are referred to as a garland (see Ezekiel 24:17), it may be inferred from this verse that the ashes were placed in the same place as the phylacteries. The baraita continues: And anyone who mourns for the destruction of Jerusalem will merit and see its joy, as it is stated: “Rejoice with Jerusalem, and be glad with her, all that love her; rejoice for joy with her, all that mourn for her” (Isaiah 66:10). It is taught in a baraita (Tosefta, Sota 15:10) that Rabbi Yishmael ben Elisha said: From the day that the Temple was destroyed, by right, we should decree upon ourselves not to eat meat and not to drink wine, but the Sages do not issue a decree upon the public unless a majority of the public is able to abide by it.

When do you need to be in your feelings, and when is it right to move on?

In the story, only the external perspective of Rabbi Yehoshua gets the mourners to stop mourning. Can we ever be our own Rabbi Yehoshua, and take ourselves out of a place of excessive grief?