Notes 5/7 Shiur- 3 understandings of LoLezaro
lemaiseh its an ofeneh sifri
מנהני מילי א"ר יהושע בן לוי (אמר ר"ש בן לקיש) דאמר קרא (דברים יט, יט) ועשיתם לו כאשר זמם לו ולא לזרעו וליפסלוהו לדידיה ולא ליפסלו לזרעיה בעינן כאשר זמם לעשות וליכא בר פדא אומר ק"ו ומה המחלל אינו מתחלל הבא לחלל ולא חילל אינו דין שלא יתחלל מתקיף לה רבינא אם כן בטלת תורת עדים זוממין
MISHNA: How are witnesses rendered conspiring witnesses? This applies in a case where two witnesses came before the court and said: We testify with regard to so-and-so, who is a priest, that he is the son of a divorced woman or the son of a ḥalutza, a yevama who performed the rite of ḥalitza to free herself from the levirate bond. Those testimonies render him a ḥalal (see Leviticus 21:6–7), one disqualified from the priesthood due to flawed lineage. If a second set of witnesses testifies in court and renders the first set conspiring witnesses, one does not say with regard to each of the conspiring witnesses: This witness shall be rendered the son of a divorced woman or the son of a ḥalutza in his stead. Rather, he receives forty lashes as punishment for his false testimony. Likewise, in a case where two witnesses came before the court and said: We testify with regard to so-and-so that he is liable to be exiled to a city of refuge for unwittingly killing another (see Numbers 35:11), and a second set of witnesses testifies in court and renders the first set conspiring witnesses, one does not say with regard to each of the conspiring witnesses: This witness shall be exiled in his stead. Rather, he receives forty lashes. GEMARA: The Gemara analyzes the opening question of the mishna: But based on the cases discussed in the mishna, the tanna should have asked: How are witnesses not rendered conspiring witnesses? The standard punishment for conspiring witnesses is the punishment that they conspired to have inflicted upon the subject of their testimony. The mishna cites anomalous cases where their punishment does not correspond to the punishment they sought to have inflicted. The Gemara asks: And furthermore, from the fact that the tanna teaches in a mishna cited later (5a): But if the second set of witnesses attempting to render the first set conspiring witnesses said to them: How can you testify to that incident when on that day you were with us in such and such place, these first witnesses are conspiring witnesses. One learns by inference from the final phrase in the cited passage: These are conspiring witnesses, that those enumerated in the mishna here are not conspiring witnesses. The Gemara answers both questions: The tanna is standing there in his studies, at the end of tractate Sanhedrin, which immediately precedes Makkot, and Makkot is often appended to the end of Sanhedrin. The mishna there teaches (89a): All those who are rendered conspiring witnesses are led to be executed with the same mode of execution with which they conspired to have their victim executed, except for conspiring witnesses who testified that the daughter of a priest and her paramour committed adultery, where the daughter of the priest would be executed by burning (see Leviticus 21:9) and her paramour would be executed by strangulation. In that case, they are not taken directly to be executed with the same mode of execution that they sought to have inflicted on the woman; rather, they are executed with a different mode of execution, the one they sought to have inflicted on the paramour. Therefore, the tanna continues in this first mishna in Makkot: And there are other conspiring witnesses with regard to whom the court does not apply the halakhot governing the punishment in standard cases of conspiring testimony at all, and they do not receive the punishment they sought to have inflicted. Rather, they receive forty lashes. How, and in what cases, is this applied? This is applied in a case where two witnesses came before the court and said: We testify with regard to so-and-so that he is the son of a divorced woman or the son of a ḥalutza, one does not say with regard to each of the conspiring witnesses: This witness shall be rendered the son of a divorced woman or the son of a ḥalutza in his stead. Rather, he receives forty lashes. The Gemara asks: From where is this matter derived that the court does not punish the witnesses with the punishment they sought to have inflicted and disqualify them from the priesthood? Rabbi Yehoshua ben Levi says that Rabbi Shimon ben Lakish says: It is derived from a verse, as the verse states: “And you shall do to him as he conspired” (Deuteronomy 19:19), from which the Gemara infers: It is done “to him,” but not to his offspring. Rendering the witness a ḥalal would disqualify his offspring as well. The Gemara challenges: Let the court invalidate the witness and not invalidate his offspring. The Gemara explains: That too would not accord with the directive in the verse, as based on the verse we require that the punishment be “as he conspired to do” (Deuteronomy 19:19), and that is not the case here, as the witness conspired to disqualify the subject of his testimony and his offspring. Bar Padda says that this alternative form of punishment is derived through an a fortiori inference: If one who actually disqualifies another from the priesthood, i.e., a priest who fathers a son with a divorcée disqualifies their son from the priesthood, is not himself disqualified from the priesthood, so too with regard to this witness who came to disqualify another from the priesthood but was unsuccessful and did not disqualify him because he was rendered a conspiring witness, isn’t it logical that he should not be disqualified? Ravina objects to this reasoning: If so, that the failure of the conspiring witnesses to achieve their objective is the consideration at the basis of the a fortiori inference, you have thereby rendered the halakha of conspiring witnesses obsolete, as one could claim:
3 ways of looking at the derashos- 1. derasha is direct source for a certain halacha- leads to questions about egyptians. 2. sukkah- svaras which influence our understanding of pesukim, but we have the din. 3. the halacha defines the simple understanding of the pesukim.
Mishneh Torah :18, 20. rambam only enumerates death, lashes, money.
Rambam brings ’ brother" , not kaasher aseh. This is al pi kabbalah. Not logical because in yevamos it refers to him as dead.
The mishnah is just showing that it is strong possibility.
The rambam explains that it is a zemam which is when you cannot get the other 3 things. Then he explains the things. without the derasha? why not? it is clear- it is not of the three things. similar to gemara in sukkah- we need a sauce. and an individual sauce for each one. lechora he is coming from Sifrei.
(יט) וַעֲשִׂ֣יתֶם ל֔וֹ כַּאֲשֶׁ֥ר זָמַ֖ם לַעֲשׂ֣וֹת לְאָחִ֑יו וּבִֽעַרְתָּ֥ הָרָ֖ע מִקִּרְבֶּֽךָ׃
(19) you shall do to the one as the one schemed to do to the other. Thus you will sweep out evil from your midst;
ועשיתם לו כאשר זמם לעשות לאחיו. אם ממון ממון, אם מכות מכות, אם עונשים עונשים.
(Ibid. 19:19) "Then you shall do to him as he schemed to do to his brother": If money (i.e., if he schemed to make his brother liable for money), money (i.e., then he pays money); if stripes, stripes; if (other) punishments, punishments.
This is an offene Meiri – lumdanu
Tosfos- on bottom- he asked maharshas question. yyyy.
Toisfos understands as referring to yichus.
what is causing him to say its a din yichus that now hes going to create a new derasha?
He understood the logic behind the first derasha to be behind the second.
Ritva- able to answer that if he had a wife, she would be pasul- even if he doesnt have a wife.
How?
Sanhedrin 68- we look at what you wanted to effect- therefore also on children- so what is difference between children and wife.
therefore, practically it is never going to happen- what about when there's no wife? TL- Psak with capability to affect (with status).
Ritva argues- not a ripple effect, but the type of pasul. Therefore he argues. son is different than wife, since family pasul. wife is a different parsha- not relative.
However, still din, which is that the pasuk is a gilui that everything like this (yichus) is taken out.
Ramban- כיצד העדים וכו' שהוא בן גרושה ובן חלוצה. בדין הוא דליתני ממזר או נתין אלא מילת' דשכיחא קתני ואע"ג דבתוספתא קתני לה הכי אם העידוהו שהוא בן גרושה בן חלוצה נתין ממזר ועבד ולוקי' את הארבעים מתני' מיהא חדא מנייהו נקט דשכיחא טפי ועוד דקמ"ל דלא משלם ליה ממון אע"ג דמפסיד מיניה אכילת תרומה ושאר מתנות כהונה.
the KML is that since you are punished for malkos, you now cannot pay money.
לא כאשר זמם לגרום
Lechora this is against the other people who we just talked about.
Just like by the kids, we dont take money, also that will apply by the adults, that the KZ has to be on the primary subject of adus.
If BD does not pasken a fine, then it does note exist (Gra stz, RAE). That is the assumption of the rambans question.
If a person does averiah accidently, if no knowledge, he is not obligated. Need 1 and 2. ramban in kesubos.
if one two people, i need partial KZ in each one of the people.
the zemmamah is on the son as the kid of the father, therefore, it has to be in my kid. since cant be mekayem it on my kid, not good. i only wanted to damage him as the kid, not as an individual.
so only need each personality to receive a bit of punishment.
he reads the derasha as telling me certain halachos like Tosfos.
Tosfos with mitzri shani is saying ripple
Ritva is saying pratei also but with yichus, which takes out wife
Rambam says complete gilui (good