Exploring Ancestral Punishment in Judaism
Exploring Ancestral Punishment in Judaism
(ז) נֹצֵ֥ר חֶ֙סֶד֙ לָאֲלָפִ֔ים נֹשֵׂ֥א עָוֺ֛ן וָפֶ֖שַׁע וְחַטָּאָ֑ה וְנַקֵּה֙ לֹ֣א יְנַקֶּ֔ה פֹּקֵ֣ד ׀ עֲוֺ֣ן אָב֗וֹת עַל־בָּנִים֙ וְעַל־בְּנֵ֣י בָנִ֔ים עַל־שִׁלֵּשִׁ֖ים וְעַל־רִבֵּעִֽים׃
(7) extending kindness to the thousandth generation, forgiving iniquity, transgression, and sin—yet not remitting all punishment, but visiting the iniquity of parents upon children and children’s children, upon the third and fourth generations.”
From here it seems like actions of ones ancestors do effect the descendent, as G-d says himself that the sin of the forefather is punishable until the fourth generation
(טז) לֹֽא־יוּמְת֤וּ אָבוֹת֙ עַל־בָּנִ֔ים וּבָנִ֖ים לֹא־יוּמְת֣וּ עַל־אָב֑וֹת אִ֥ישׁ בְּחֶטְא֖וֹ יוּמָֽתוּ׃ {ס}
(16) Parents shall not be put to death for children, nor children be put to death for parents: they shall each be put to death only for their own crime.
This completely contradicts the previous source, saying that children aren't punished for their parents sin, let alone 3rd and 4th generation ancestors
A possible explanation: HaRav Sacks ZT"L
" The first statement refers to Divine justice, “at the hands of Heaven.” The second, in Deuteronomy, refers to human justice as administered in a court of law. How can mere mortals decide the extent to which one person’s crime was induced by the influence of others? Clearly the judicial process must limit itself to the observable facts. The person who committed the crime is guilty. Those who may have shaped his character are not."- Covenant and Conversation
Problem with the solution:
(כט) בַּיָּמִ֣ים הָהֵ֔ם לֹא־יֹאמְר֣וּ ע֔וֹד אָב֖וֹת אָ֣כְלוּ בֹ֑סֶר וְשִׁנֵּ֥י בָנִ֖ים תִּקְהֶֽינָה׃
(29) In those days, they shall no longer say, “Parents have eaten sour grapes and children’s teeth are blunted.”
(א) וַיְהִ֥י דְבַר־יהוה אֵלַ֥י לֵאמֹֽר׃ (ב) מַה־לָּכֶ֗ם אַתֶּם֙ מֹֽשְׁלִים֙ אֶת־הַמָּשָׁ֣ל הַזֶּ֔ה עַל־אַדְמַ֥ת יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל לֵאמֹ֑ר אָבוֹת֙ יֹ֣אכְלוּ בֹ֔סֶר וְשִׁנֵּ֥י הַבָּנִ֖ים תִּקְהֶֽינָה׃ (ג) חַי־אָ֕נִי נְאֻ֖ם אדני יהוה אִם־יִהְיֶ֨ה לָכֶ֜ם ע֗וֹד מְשֹׁ֛ל הַמָּשָׁ֥ל הַזֶּ֖ה בְּיִשְׂרָאֵֽל׃ (ד) הֵ֤ן כׇּל־הַנְּפָשׁוֹת֙ לִ֣י הֵ֔נָּה כְּנֶ֧פֶשׁ הָאָ֛ב וּכְנֶ֥פֶשׁ הַבֵּ֖ן לִי־הֵ֑נָּה הַנֶּ֥פֶשׁ הַחֹטֵ֖את הִ֥יא תָמֽוּת׃
(1) The word of GOD came to me: (2) What do you mean by quoting this proverb upon the soil of Israel, “Parents eat sour grapes and their children’s teeth are blunted”? (3) As I live—declares the Sovereign GOD—this proverb shall no longer be current among you in Israel. (4) Consider, all lives are Mine; the life of the parent and the life of the child are both Mine. Only the person who sins shall die.
G-d, while giving Chizzuk to Bnei Yisroel al pi Yechezkal/Yermiah, says himself that the solution doesn't work, saying that only the person who sins will die, saying our quote is not true, as only the sinner will die. R' Sacks' explanation that only G-d can give punishment to other generation is seemingly incorrect, as G-d himself says that he won't give punishment to anyone but the sinner
גמ׳ מנהני מילי דת"ר (דברים כד, טז) לא יומתו אבות על בנים מה ת"ל אם ללמד שלא יומתו אבות בעון בנים ובנים בעון אבות הרי כבר נאמר (דברים כד, טז) איש בחטאו יומתו אלא לא יומתו אבות על בנים בעדות בנים ובנים לא יומתו על אבות בעדות אבות ובנים בעון אבות לא והכתיב (שמות לד, ז) פוקד עון אבות על בנים התם כשאוחזין מעשה אבותיהן בידיהן
GEMARA: From where is this matter, that relatives are disqualified from bearing witness, derived? The Gemara answers: It is as the Sages taught in a baraita: “The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers; every man shall be put to death for his own sin” (Deuteronomy 24:16). Why must the verse state this first clause? If it is to teach that the fathers shall not be put to death for the sin of the children, nor shall the children be put to death for the sin of the fathers, this is unnecessary, as it is in any event stated: “Every man shall be put to death for his own sin.” Rather, the statement “The fathers shall not be put to death for the children” should be interpreted to mean that they shall not be put to death by the testimony of the children, and the statement “Neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers” should be interpreted to mean that they shall not be put to death by the testimony of the fathers. The Gemara asks: And are children not put to death for the sin of the fathers? But isn’t it written: “Visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children’s children, unto the third and unto the fourth generation” (Exodus 34:7)? The Gemara answers: There, the verse is referring to a situation where the children adopt the actions of their ancestors as their own. If they do not behave like their ancestors they are not punished for their ancestors’ sins.
Seemingly, the only time one can be punished for their ancestors sin is by G-d (because we never had said man was allowed to, rather, this Gemara shows just G-d can punish) when the decendent picks up the wicked actions of their forefathers. Can one truly never be punished for their ancestors actions besides for this specific case?
R' Sacks' second solution: Covenant and Conversation
"Rather, what is at stake is the deep understanding of the scope of responsibility we bear if we take seriously our roles as parents, neighbours, townspeople, citizens, and children of the covenant. Judicially, only the criminal is responsible for his crime. But, implies the Torah, we are also our brother’s keeper. We share collective responsibility for the moral and spiritual health of society. “All Israel,” said the Sages, “are responsible for one another.” Legal responsibility is one thing, and relatively easy to define. But moral responsibility is something altogether larger, if necessarily more vague. “Let a person not say, ‘I have not sinned, and if someone else commits a sin, that is a matter between him and God.’ This is contrary to the Torah,” writes Maimonides in the Sefer ha-Mitzvot.[3] "
L'fi HaRav Sacks ZT'L, although one isn't liable for punsihment if his ancestors/realtive wronged and he didn't pick up in his ways, he still is responsible as a relative, friend, neighbor, or many other things for the sins his friend/relative commited. As someone who is close to someone else, it is your responsibility to make sure your fellow is doing the right thing.
וכל עבירות שבתורה מכל העולם לא והכתיב (ויקרא כו, לז) וכשלו איש באחיו איש בעון אחיו מלמד שכל ישראל ערבים זה בזה
The Gemara asks: And with regard to all of the other transgressions in the Torah, is punishment not exacted from the entire world? But isn’t it written: “And they shall stumble one upon another” (Leviticus 26:37)? This verse is homiletically interpreted to mean that they shall stumble spiritually, one due to the iniquity of another, which teaches that the entire Jewish people are considered guarantors for one another. Apparently, any transgression makes the entire world liable to be punished.
We are responsible for our brothers actions. Regardless if we will physically be punished or not, we are responsible for our fellows actions. Although in most cases there is no Ancestral Punishment in Judiasm, one should take responsibility for those around them sins who they couldn't affect positively, and try to influence others to do the right thing, as "Kol Yisroel Arevim Ze BaZeh"