We spent the day hearing and thinking about how the victim perpetrator framework restricts justice work. Let's see what the sages say.
We spent the day discussing how the victim-perpetrator mindset undermines our justice system. Here is a bit of what our sages had to say on the topic.
Who has the right to declare what a just punishment is? Is there such thing as a just punishment?
כִּֽי־יִהְיֶ֥ה רִיב֙ בֵּ֣ין אֲנָשִׁ֔ים וְנִגְּשׁ֥וּ אֶל־הַמִּשְׁפָּ֖ט וּשְׁפָט֑וּם וְהִצְדִּ֙יקוּ֙ אֶת־הַצַּדִּ֔יק וְהִרְשִׁ֖יעוּ אֶת־הָרָשָֽׁע׃
When there is a dispute between two parties and they go to law, and a decision is rendered declaring the one in the right and the other in the wrong—
וְהָיָ֛ה אִם־בִּ֥ן הַכּ֖וֹת הָרָשָׁ֑ע וְהִפִּיל֤וֹ הַשֹּׁפֵט֙ וְהִכָּ֣הוּ לְפָנָ֔יו כְּדֵ֥י רִשְׁעָת֖וֹ בְּמִסְפָּֽר׃
if the guilty one is to be flogged, the magistrate shall have the person lie down and shall supervise the giving of lashes, by count, as warranted by the offense.
אַרְבָּעִ֥ים יַכֶּ֖נּוּ לֹ֣א יֹסִ֑יף פֶּן־יֹסִ֨יף לְהַכֹּת֤וֹ עַל־אֵ֙לֶּה֙ מַכָּ֣ה רַבָּ֔ה וְנִקְלָ֥ה אָחִ֖יךָ לְעֵינֶֽיךָ׃
The guilty one may be given up to forty lashes, but not more, lest being flogged further, to excess, your peer be degraded before your eyes.
ב. לִפְעָמִים דָּנִין אֶת הָאָדָם עַל פִּיו.
A person sometimes unknowingly passes judgment on himself [by being asked to select a fitting punishment for someone else].
וַיִּבְרָ֨א אֱלֹקִ֤ים ׀ אֶת־הָֽאָדָם֙ בְּצַלְמ֔וֹ בְּצֶ֥לֶם אֱלֹקִ֖ים בָּרָ֣א אֹת֑וֹ זָכָ֥ר וּנְקֵבָ֖ה בָּרָ֥א אֹתָֽם׃
And God created humankind in the divine image,creating it in the image of God—creating them male and female.
How much does our justice system contribute to notions of "shame?"
הַתּוֹקֵעַ לַחֲבֵרוֹ, נוֹתֵן לוֹ סֶלַע. רַבִּי יְהוּדָה אוֹמֵר מִשּׁוּם רַבִּי יוֹסֵי הַגְּלִילִי, מָנֶה. סְטָרוֹ, נוֹתֵן לוֹ מָאתַיִם זוּז. לְאַחַר יָדוֹ, נוֹתֵן לוֹ אַרְבַּע מֵאוֹת זוּז. צָרַם בְּאָזְנוֹ, תָּלַשׁ בִּשְׂעָרוֹ, רָקַק וְהִגִּיעַ בּוֹ רֻקּוֹ, הֶעֱבִיר טַלִּיתוֹ מִמֶּנּוּ, פָּרַע רֹאשׁ הָאִשָּׁה בַּשּׁוּק, נוֹתֵן אַרְבַּע מֵאוֹת זוּז. זֶה הַכְּלָל הַכֹּל לְפִי כְבוֹדוֹ. אָמַר רַבִּי עֲקִיבָא, אֲפִילוּ עֲנִיִּים שֶׁבְּיִשְׂרָאֵל, רוֹאִין אוֹתָם כְּאִלּוּ הֵם בְּנֵי חוֹרִין שֶׁיָּרְדוּ מִנִּכְסֵיהֶם, שֶׁהֵם בְּנֵי אַבְרָהָם, יִצְחָק וְיַעֲקֹב. וּמַעֲשֶׂה בְּאֶחָד שֶׁפָּרַע רֹאשׁ הָאִשָּׁה בַּשּׁוּק, בָּאת לִפְנֵי רַבִּי עֲקִיבָא, וְחִיְּבוֹ לִתֵּן לָהּ אַרְבַּע מֵאוֹת זוּז. אָמַר לוֹ רַבִּי, תֶּן לִי זְמַן. וְנָתַן לוֹ זְמַן. שְׁמָרָהּ עוֹמֶדֶת עַל פֶּתַח חֲצֵרָהּ וְשָׁבַר אֶת הַכַּד בְּפָנֶיהָ, וּבוֹ כְּאִסָּר שֶׁמֶן. גִּלְּתָה אֶת רֹאשָׁהּ, וְהָיְתָה מְטַפַּחַת וּמַנַּחַת יָדָהּ עַל רֹאשָׁהּ. הֶעֱמִיד עָלֶיהָ עֵדִים, וּבָא לִפְנֵי רַבִּי עֲקִיבָא. אָמַר לוֹ, רַבִּי, לָזוֹ אֲנִי נוֹתֵן אַרְבַּע מֵאוֹת זוּז. אָמַר לוֹ, לֹא אָמַרְתָּ כְּלוּם. הַחוֹבֵל בְּעַצְמוֹ, אַף עַל פִּי שֶׁאֵינוֹ רַשַּׁאי, פָּטוּר. אֲחֵרִים שֶׁחָבְלוּ בּוֹ, חַיָּבִין. וְהַקּוֹצֵץ נְטִיעוֹתָיו, אַף עַל פִּי שֶׁאֵינוֹ רַשַּׁאי, פָּטוּר. אֲחֵרִים שֶׁקָּצְצוּ אֶת נְטִיעוֹתָיו, חַיָּבִים:
One who strikes another must give him a sela. Rabbi Yehuda says in the name of Rabbi Yosei HaGelili that he must give him one hundred dinars. If he slapped another on the cheek, he must give him two hundred dinars. If he slapped him on the cheek with the back of his hand, which is more degrading than a slap with the palm, he must give him four hundred dinars. If he pulled his ear, or pulled out his hair, or spat at him and his spittle reached him, or if he removed the other’s cloak from him, or if he uncovered the head of a woman in the marketplace, in all of these cases, he must give the injured party four hundred dinars. This is the principle of assessing payment for humiliation caused to another: It is all evaluated in accordance with the honor of the one who was humiliated, as the Gemara will explain. Rabbi Akiva said: Even with regard to the poor among the Jewish people, they are viewed as though they were freemen who lost their property and were impoverished. And their humiliation is calculated according to this status, as they are the children of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and are all of prominent lineage. The mishna relates: And an incident occurred involving one who uncovered the head of a woman in the marketplace, and the woman came before Rabbi Akiva to request that he render the assailant liable to pay for the humiliation that she suffered, and Rabbi Akiva rendered the assailant liable to give her four hundred dinars. The man said to Rabbi Akiva: My teacher, give me time to pay the penalty, and Rabbi Akiva gave him time. The man then waited for her until she was standing by the opening of her courtyard, and he broke a jug in front of her, and there was the value of about an issar of oil inside the jug. The woman then exposed her own head and she was wetting [metapaḥat] her hand in the oil, and placing her hand on her head to make use of the oil. The man set up witnesses to observe her actions, and he came before Rabbi Akiva, and he said to him: Will I give four hundred dinars to this woman for having uncovered her head? By uncovering her head for a minimal benefit, she has demonstrated that this does not cause her humiliation. Rabbi Akiva said to him: You did not say anything, i.e., this claim will not exempt you. One who injures himself, although it is not permitted for him to do so, is nevertheless exempt from any sort of penalty, but others who injured him are liable to pay him. In this case as well, the man was liable to compensate the woman for shaming her, despite the fact that she did the same to herself. Similarly, one who cuts down his own saplings, although it is not permitted for him to do so, as this violates the prohibition of: “You shall not destroy” (see Deuteronomy 20:19), is exempt from any penalty, but others who cut down his saplings are liable to pay him.
Human rights and fair punishments as described by Tanach and Talmud
(כה) וְֽאִם־בַּשָּׂדֶ֞ה יִמְצָ֣א הָאִ֗ישׁ אֶת־הַֽנַּעֲרָ֙ הַמְאֹ֣רָשָׂ֔ה וְהֶחֱזִֽיק־בָּ֥הּ הָאִ֖ישׁ וְשָׁכַ֣ב עִמָּ֑הּ וּמֵ֗ת הָאִ֛ישׁ אֲשֶׁר־שָׁכַ֥ב עִמָּ֖הּ לְבַדּֽוֹ׃
(25) But if the man comes upon the engaged girl in the open country, and the man lies with her by force, only the party who lay with her shall die,
וְלַֽנַּעֲרָ֙ לֹא־תַעֲשֶׂ֣ה דָבָ֔ר אֵ֥ין לַֽנַּעֲרָ֖ חֵ֣טְא מָ֑וֶת כִּ֡י כַּאֲשֶׁר֩ יָק֨וּם אִ֤ישׁ עַל־רֵעֵ֙הוּ֙ וּרְצָח֣וֹ נֶ֔פֶשׁ כֵּ֖ן הַדָּבָ֥ר הַזֶּֽה׃
but you shall do nothing to the girl. The girl did not incur the death penalty, for this case is like that of one party attacking and murdering another.
אֵין אוֹמְדִין אוֹתוֹ אֶלָּא בְמַכּוֹת הָרְאוּיוֹת לְהִשְׁתַּלֵּשׁ. אֲמָדוּהוּ לְקַבֵּל אַרְבָּעִים, לָקָה מִקְצָת וְאָמְרוּ שֶׁאֵינוֹ יָכוֹל לְקַבֵּל אַרְבָּעִים, פָּטוּר. אֲמָדוּהוּ לְקַבֵּל שְׁמֹנֶה עֶשְׂרֵה, מִשֶּׁלָּקָה אָמְרוּ שֶׁיָּכוֹל הוּא לְקַבֵּל אַרְבָּעִים, פָּטוּר. עָבַר עֲבֵרָה שֶׁיֶּשׁ בָּהּ שְׁנֵי לָאוִין, אֲמָדוּהוּ אֹמֶד אֶחָד, לוֹקֶה וּפָטוּר. וְאִם לָאו, לוֹקֶה וּמִתְרַפֵּא וְחוֹזֵר וְלוֹקֶה:
One assesses the number of lashes that the one being punished is capable of withstanding only with a number of lashes fit to be divided into three equal groups. If the assessment was that he can survive twenty lashes, he is flogged with eighteen. Likewise, if doctors assessed concerning him that he is able to receive forty lashes and survive, and he is then flogged some of those forty lashes, and then they assessed him again and concluded that he cannot receive forty lashes and survive, he is exempt from the additional lashes. If the doctors initially assessed concerning him that he is able to receive only eighteen lashes, and once he was flogged eighteen times they assessed that he is able to receive forty, he is exempt from receiving additional lashes. If one performed a transgression that involves two prohibitions, and they assessed concerning him a single assessment of the number of lashes that he could withstand in punishment for both transgressions, he is flogged in accordance with their assessment and is exempt from any additional lashes. And if not, if he was assessed with regard to the lashes that he could withstand for one transgression, he is flogged and is allowed to heal, and then is flogged again for violating the second prohibition.
הנסיון להגיע במשפט לקביעות של צדק מוחלט, על כל סבכי דיני הראיות וחוקי הנוהל הקשורים בכך, עשויים היו להביא לניצולו לרעה של מצב זה על ידי פושעים מסוגים שונים, ולערער את יסודות החברה והכלכלה. כדי למנוע מצב של הפקרות השתמשו בתי הדין הרבה מאוד בסמכותם האדמינסטרטיבית, הנובעת מהוראת ״ובערת הרע מקרבך״. מכח סמכות זו רשאי היה בית הדין להטיל ענשים משמעתיים חמורים מאד (החרמת רכוש, מלקות ואפילו עונש מוות) כדי להשליט סדר במדינה, ולדכא עושי רשעה מכל סוג. כמו כן ויתרו על כמה מן הדרישות החמורות של הדין בדיני ממונות שונים — כדי לאפשר קיומם של חיים כלכליים תקינים. נוסף לכך, היו צדדים מרובים בחיי המעשה מסורים בידי הרשות המבצעת, בראשותו של המלך. המלך והרשות המבצעת כולה חייבים היו כמובן לנהוג לפי חוק התורה, כי חוק זה עומד מעל לכל ואין בידי איש לשנותו. אולם אותם תחומים שאינם קשורים בחוק זה, ובמסגרת חוקי המדינה, יכול המלך לעשות כראות עיניו. המלך היה רשאי להטיל מסים, לגייס אנשים לצבא או לעבודות ציבוריות, ולהפקיע נכסים לצרכי הכלל. יתר על כן: ביד המלך היתה גם סמכות שיפוטית מסוימת, והוא עמד בראש מערכת בתי דין מנהליים ששפטו על פי ״דיני המלוכה״. בתי דין אלה עסקו בהחלת הפקודות והתקנות המלכותיות אולם שמשו גם כמסייעים למערכת השיפוט הראשית של הסנהדרין. לבתי דין אלה נזקקו כדי להשליט סדר ידוע כאשר בתי הדין הרגילים לא יכלו לעשות זאת בגלל סדרי הדיון ודיני הראיות החמורים המחייבים אותם.
The many restrictions on admissible evidence and procedural handling of witnesses that flow from the attempt to arrive at absolute justice create the potential for abuse by various types of transgressors, who could use utilize these restrictions to escape justice and thereby undermine the very foundations of society and the economy. In order to prevent a situation of anarchy, the courts made widespread use of the administrative authority granted them by the verse: “You shall remove the evil from your midst” (e.g., Deuteronomy 13:6). On the basis of this authority the court has the power to impose significant punishments, including monetary fines and the confiscation of property, lashes, and even the death penalty, in order to maintain law and order and to force evildoers into submission. In addition, the courts at times waived some of the strict requirements of admissible evidence in relation to various monetary matters, in order to enable the lawful and orderly functioning of the economy.
תַּבְרָא חֳלַף תַּבְרָא עֵינָא חֳלַף עֵינָא שִׁנָּא חֳלַף שִׁנָּא כְּמָא דִי יִתֵּן מוּמָא בַּאֲנָשָׁא כֵּן יִתְיְהֶב בֵּיהּ:
[Compensation for] a broken bone [in exchange] for a broken bone, [compen-sation for] the loss of an eye [in exchange] for the loss of an eye, [compensation for] the loss to a tooth [in exchange] for the loss of a tooth; just as he maimed the man, so shall it be done to him [monetarily].
ובפרק קמא דמכות (ז.), תנן בית דין ההורגת אחד* בשבוע נקראת חבלנית. ורבי אלעזר בן עזריה אומר, אחת לשבעים שנה. ורבי טרפון ורבי עקיבא אומרים, אילו היינו בבית דין לא נהרג אדם מעולם. וכל זה כמו שאמרנו, כי מאחר שהוא דן למיתה פעם אחת בשבוע, דבר שהוא לשבעה שנים, שהם חוזרים חלילה, לא נקרא* שאינו רגיל, רק רגיל נקרא, ואינו דבר במקרה. ולפיכך נקרא 'בית דין של חבלנית'. ורבי אלעזר בן עזריה אומר, אחת לשבעים שנה. ובגמרא (מכות ז.) מבעיא, אם פירוש אחת לשבעים שנה נקרא חבלנית. שכל אשר נעשה פעם אחד בחייו של אדם, שהם שבעים שנה, ואם כן דנין למיתה בכל דור ודור, וזה נקרא רגיל, והם חבלנית. או אחת לשבעים שנה ראוי שיהיו דנין למיתה, שאם לא כן, לא יאמר שהם בית דין כלל, שהרי אין דנין למיתה. ונשאר בגמרא בתיקו. ורבי טרפון ורבי עקיבא אומרים, אילו היינו בבית דין לא נהרג אדם מעולם. שכל כך היו מלמדים זכות, כמו שמפורש שם. ועל זה השיבו להם, אף אתם מרבים שופכי דמים, כאשר יראו שכל אחד נדון לזכות, ולא יהיה יראת בית דין עליהם כלל, כאשר לא יהיה נדון אחד. וכל אלו דברים ראוים לקרב אותם בשתי ידים, והם דברי אמת ויושר.
In the first chapter of Makkot (7a), we learn [in the Mishnah]: A High Court [Sanhedrin] that executes [someone] once in seven years is called destructive. Rabbi Elazar ben Azarya says, "Once in seventy years." Rabbi Tarfon and Rabbi Akiva say, "If we had been in the court, no person would have ever been executed." And this is as we said — that since it issues the death penalty once in seven years, something that happens once in seven years, which is a continuous cycle, is not called uncommon. Rather, it is called common and is not an incidental thing. And that is why it is called destructive. Whereas Rabbi Elazar ben Azarya says, "Once in seventy years." And in the Gemara (7a), it is asked whether the meaning is that [if it is] once in seventy years, it is called destructive. For anything that happens once in a person's life, which is seventy years, such that they would execute [someone] in each generation, is called common, such that they are destructive. Or is it that it is appropriate to execute [someone] once in seventy years. Otherwise, it will not be said that they are a court at all, since they clearly do not issue the death penalty. And the Gemara leaves this unresolved. Rabbi Tarfon and Rabbi Akiva say, "If we had been in the court, no person would have ever been executed," as they would have argued the defense to so great an extent, as it is explained there. But about this, they answered them, "You would increase the number of murderers," when they would see that everyone was judged as innocent, such that they would not have any fear of the court at all when there would not be a single conviction. And it is worthwhile to bring all these things near to oneself with both hands; they are words of truth and righteousness.
הֵיכִי דָּמֵי בַּעַל תְּשׁוּבָה? אָמַר רַב יְהוּדָה: כְּגוֹן שֶׁבָּאת לְיָדוֹ דְּבַר עֲבֵירָה פַּעַם רִאשׁוֹנָה וּשְׁנִיָּה וְנִיצַּל הֵימֶנָּה. מַחְוֵי רַב יְהוּדָה: בְּאוֹתָהּ אִשָּׁה, בְּאוֹתוֹ פֶּרֶק, בְּאוֹתוֹ מָקוֹם.
§ With regard to repentance, the Gemara asks: What are the circumstances that demonstrate that one has completely repented? Rav Yehuda said: For example, the prohibited matter came to his hand a first time and a second time, and he was saved from it, thereby proving that he has completely repented. Rav Yehuda demonstrated what he meant: If one has the opportunity to sin with the same woman he sinned with previously, at the same time and the same place, and everything is aligned as it was that first time when he sinned, but this time he overcomes his inclination, it proves his repentance is complete, and he is forgiven.
רבי אליעזר הקפר אומר התרחק מן התרעומת. שאם תתרעם על אחרים תוסיף לחטוא.
Rabbi Eleazar of Kfar says: distance yourself from claims of victimhood, for if you make claims upon others, you may continue into error.

